32. Reclaiming Your Right to Be Creative with Allegra Chapman

Creativity is something we often see "reserved" for the talented. Otherwise it's seen as indulgent, frivolous, even wasted time. In this episode, we gently dismantle that myth. 

I’m joined by writer and creative guide Allegra Chapman for a rich, grounding conversation about creativity as a nervous-system practice, a form of self-care, and a path back to self-connection. We explore why so many people believe they’re “not creative,” how early experiences — especially in the early school years — can create lasting creativity wounds, and why our culture actively discourages imagination, play, and rest.

Together, we talk about creativity as embodiment: using the hands, the senses, and the body to regulate the nervous system, quiet mental noise, and access intuition. We discuss creative practices as a kind of moving meditation — especially for neurodivergent minds — and why making something doesn’t need to result in a masterpiece to be meaningful. The process itself is where healing, insight, and clarity live.

This episode also touches on the deeper layers of creativity: how productivity culture, burnout, and constant output disconnect us from our inner worlds; how creative expression can restore a sense of agency and purpose; and why reclaiming imagination is quietly radical in a system that benefits from exhaustion and compliance.

If you’ve ever felt disconnected from your creativity, stuck in freeze, overwhelmed by productivity pressure, or unsure how to rest without guilt, this conversation offers a softer way back. Creativity here isn’t about talent or outcome — it’s about permission, presence, and remembering that expression is part of being human.

Topics we explore include:
creative self-care, nervous system regulation, embodiment, creativity wounds, neurodivergence and creativity, creative meditation, burnout recovery, intuition, and reclaiming imagination as a form of healing and resistance.

This episode is an invitation to play, to listen inward, and to reconnect with yourself — one small creative act at a time.

About Allegra

Allegra Chapman is an author, columnist and creative therapy practitioner. As an AuDHD mother, she is passionate about supporting creatives who don't fit into society's boxes to claim and embody their creative power. Allegra's latest book, Creativity Is Your Self-Care, is out now. 

Allegra is graciously offering listeners a 20% discount on her membership. Follow this link: 

 https://yourcreativefix.substack.com/becoming

Contact Allegra at any of these links: 

Website: https://creativefix.net/

Substack: https://yourcreativefix.substack.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/allegra_chapman/

Threads: https://www.threads.com/@allegra_chapman

And for more guidance on building a creative practice, her book, Creativity Is Your Self-Care, has 52 simple, low-demand activities to he

If this episode spoke to you, it would mean the world if you took a moment to leave a review or share it with a friend who needs it. And make sure you hit follow so you never miss an episode of Conditioning to Consciousness.

You can connect with me on Instagram @jesscallahan_, join my Substack community at conditioningtoconsciousness.substack.com, or explore more of my work at jesscallahan.com.

My Back in the Body Nervous System Healing course is now available! Find it here.

Thanks for listening — I’m so grateful you’re here.

Transcript

Allegra Chapman 0:00

All right, Allegra, thank you so much for joining me today for this discussion. Um, I think, you know, creativity and self-care, it's such um, it's an area that's really deeply important to me. And it's something that I just um I love sharing with my world, but especially today, I can't wait to just like, you know, share it through conversation with somebody who's like like this is this is the work of who you are right now. And it's just um I'm grateful for you being here. So welcome. Um thank you so much. I'd love to just get started by turning it over to you. If you just want to, you know, share your story, how you got to where you are today and and the work that you do.

Jess Callahan 0:40

Oh wow, okay. How long have you got? So as long as you need. Um yeah, hi everybody. My name is Allegra Chapman. I am a writer by trade. So my main job is um I'm an author, an economist based in the UK. And how did I get here? I have basically always kind of struggled with my mental health. I think that's that's been kind of a recurring theme throughout my life. I discovered in my late 30s that I'm neurodivergent as well, which probably explains some of that. And so that has already always kind of been a sort of up and down road. And then as I'm, you know, I'm now kind of I'm 42 now, I'm entering perimetaphors and all of that fun type of stuff. And I've kind of had so many sort of ups and downs, and and that journey of discovering who I was and finding myself has been, you know, complicated. And for me, the one thing that's always been constant has been creativity and my writing and art has just been the real foundation for me of keeping me grounded and keeping me sane and helping with my my mental health, but also helping me really kind of figure out who I am and who I am becoming as we change in cycles of our life and and you know we progress. That creativity has been a really important force for me. So it's work that I'm really wanting to do now is to help other people to tap into that because I think it kind of feels easier for me to sit here and say, like, I'm a writer, because that's something I've done forever. Like I've always been involved in writing. But I know so many people will turn around and go, oh no, I'm not creative, because they've been sort of conditioned to think that creativity is some sort of magical thing that only certain people have access to, or you know, you have to be really super talented, magically just gifted to be able to do. And I think so many people block themselves from that creativity. Maybe that you know they had a teacher when they were younger who said something, or a parent who discouraged them, or you know, whatever. And society in general discourages us from creativity um for a lot of you know reasons. It does it's not accidental. Our society does not value creativity and it doesn't want us being creative and imaginative. But I mean, we could do a whole chat just on that. I could I, you know, I could give you my other feel on that, but society does kind of you know hold us back. So we end up thinking that we're not creative people. And I firmly believe that all human beings are creative. Life is creative, and this planet is creative. And so, yeah, I really passionately want to encourage more people to engage with that creativity and to not care whether what they're creating is you know works of genius or what. That's not the point. The process is the point. Engaging with creativity and expressing yourself is what matters. So, and that's what's going to benefit your mental health, and it's what's going to help you figure yourself out, and it's what's going to help you express yourself, and it's going to help you connect to yourself on a deeper level and connect with you kind of physically as well as mentally and bring your whole kind of body and mind into alignment because that's another thing I'm really passionate about, is we tend to divide those two and keep them separate. Um, so integrating yourself as a whole person, I think is a really important part of it. So, yeah, I just I'm so passionate about people having access to that creative expression and being able to reclaim their right to be a creative person in a creative world.

Allegra Chapman 4:29

My gosh. Okay. I I love that and I want to break down so many parts of that because I think that there's you touched on so many good points in that. And I think like like I believe the same, we are inherently creative beings. And I find that when I'm communicating with other people or, you know, friends, clients, like just just people in the world, and I might bring up a creative project I'm working on in passing. And if they know me, they'll, you know, say something like, Oh, yeah, but you're so creative. Like, I wish I was creative, right? And and I get that all the time. And I'm wondering, like, what what's something that you would say to somebody if if they were to say that to you? Like, how would you talk them through the process that they are inherently creative?

Jess Callahan 5:14

So, one of the things that I like to ask people is is what do you think creativity is? Because I think the the concept people have of it is is this really high ideal of you know, a poet in a garret somewhere, or you know, a tortured artist working on a masterpiece. And it's like actually creativity is is so many kind of really small parts of your everyday life. So um, one of the things I have, one of the resources that I have on my in my membership platform is something called an accidental creativity sheet where I get people to note down little creative moments that they didn't kind of set out to be creative, but they just kind of did something. So maybe they made a nice flower arrangement on the table, or maybe they um served their kids their dinner kind of in a nice sort of picture, because as mums, we all try and do all kinds of crazy things to get our kids to eat their food. Um or maybe they chose a nice wall colour for their house, or maybe they colour-coded a spreadsheet at work, or you know, there's all these kind of little moments that we don't even think about and we don't acknowledge that we've been creative. Creativity is problem solving, it's innovation, it's you know, there's all sorts of ways that we are creative every single day. So I think for me, I that's where I try and get people to start is acknowledging those little moments that are woven into their day that they're not even realizing. And then you notice really quickly how people are keen to downplay that and they go, oh no, no, no, but that doesn't count because this. And it's like, no, why are you why are you taking this away from yourself? But you know, we've been conditioned to minimize our creativity. And I think as women especially, that you know, is something that shows up a lot because women, I mean, women have been associated with creativity for a really long time, and creativity has been seen as a feminine thing. And if you think about the link between the sort of feminine archetype and the the way that women, women's bodies, I mean, women's bodies literally create life. So we're so inherently associated with the idea of creativity, and the patriarchy is really scared of that, and they don't like that creative power, and they don't like how dependent they are on that creative power because the species literally ends without our ability to create life. So that's something that they've consistently tried to minimize and downplay and taught us to feel ashamed of and to quiet and down about, and that kind of dual area of you know, our sort of physical creativity, our physical bodies and our expression and our, you know, our kind of status and power and our ability to tell our story and shape our narrative is really something that you know has has been attacked over the years. So now it's it's really difficult for us to relearn to take that power back and to start doing that. So it's something that I think you know we're not going to jump into easily, but I think just acknowledging those small moments and giving yourself permission to to play around and have fun with it and be like, you know what, you don't have to be creating masterpieces. You can just have fun and just do small little bits in the day and just enjoy it because it's supposed to be fun. I mean, that's the main thing with creativity, is it's supposed to be enjoyable.

Allegra Chapman 8:39

Yeah, yeah, that's so true. I think you like you named this point where I think there's such a focus for so many of the reasons that you said that like we've minimized the importance of creativity. And so we have centered the idea that like we if we're creating, if we're spending time in creativity, it needs to result in some sort of creative masterpiece. And um, you know, that's simply not true. Like if you get into a place where you're creating something that's beautiful for you, like cool. But you know, for me, it's been just like about putting a paintbrush on a piece of paper with colors that I I feel like working with. Um, but it's interesting because you know, you mentioned the conditioning and the patriarchy and all of that, and how those are the like it's sort of like about reclaiming our our creativity and the process. But I I think that there's a large part of us that doesn't even recognize in our own selves, you know, that we've become disconnected. We almost have these scripts, like, I'll give you an example. Um, I love like painting stuff in my house. And um, I think I developed that love because it felt productive. It felt like I could use creativity in a way that was productive for my family. Like if I was just in my office, um, you know, now I love to um I do a lot with like um weaving and you know, fabric arts and stuff. But like if I was doing that, it was sort of like a waste of time. It was sort of like selfish, or you know, why would I be idly passing time in my office? But if I'm painting my kitchen cabinets or, you know, the walls of my family room, it's worth it. But even then I would be like, but just it's such a waste of time. You could be out doing work or making money or building your business. But then the more I started to peel about peel away those like scripts and and allowed myself to just enjoy it, the more I realized like those are the moments when the insights come in. You know, those are the moments when I connect with my intuition, and those are the moments when I see myself. Um, what like what do you see as the biggest benefits to developing a creative practice?

Jess Callahan 10:50

Yeah, I mean, what you just said is is exactly right. And I you also you said like the the key word there, it's not productive. Like we've got to we feel like we've got to be productive all of the time. And we've been conditioned by this, uh our whole society, our economy, it our culture is based on consumption and production. So the idea is, you know, everything is a resource, we must consume it, and we must be constantly producing and um, you know, kind of contributing to the machine at all times. And if we're not contributing to the machine, then we're worth less than other people. And the more exhausted from overwork you are, and the more bent out you are, the better, because that's the mark of a really good person who really gives all of themselves to the machine. And we know that that is so incredibly bad for us, and we know it's really bad for society and it's bad for the planet, and it's you know, it's bad for us as individuals, it's bad for our families, it's bad for our wider communities, it's just you know, all you know, just destroying everything. But you know, we we keep going with it because that's you know, the the powers that be have a vested interest in keeping it that way, and so they want us to keep producing, keep consuming so that we line their pockets and we are expendable in all of that, and so yeah, we've kind of we have been conditioned to think that anything that we're doing that isn't really clearly productive is a waste of time, and that's selfish. You should be doing something that is gonna make Elon Musk some money and um you know it's like it is backwards logic because exactly like you said, those moments of creativity when your brain is off playing and free, that is when you get the insights, and that is when you normally will come up with ways to solve problems and all that kind of thing. So exactly as you said, you know, that escape for your brain, that time away from your desk and from the task at hand is really valuable for you actually being able to move forward with that work. We know, and there's been so many studies, and I find this endlessly infuriating because the research keeps coming out and they keep just battling it back, but all the research shows that people work so much better, so much more effectively, get so much better results when they are well rested, when their needs are met, when they are, you know, given more freedom and more free time and you know, all of these things. And we we don't let them have it. And it's really interesting because I get I get a lot of requests now from businesses who want me to come in and talk to their teams about how to foster a creative mindset, because they're saying their teams don't know how to be creative anymore. They don't, they're not coming up with innovative ideas, they're not able to solve problems, they're not able to react to kind of difficulties that are coming along. And I'm like, well, yeah, obviously, because you you pack their days full of meetings, you don't give them any time to think, you don't give them any time to rest, you're burning them into the ground. These people are completely frazzled, and you have a culture that punishes individual thought and you know, any kind of deviation from the norm, you have a culture that rewards conformity. So, how do you expect these people to then be coming up with innovative ideas? Like it's it's a completely backward system. So, yeah, it's you know, there's so many benefits to creativity, even if you think that productivity should be the end goal, which I don't, but even if you do, people are still more productive and work more effectively when you give them that space, when you let them meet their needs, and when you allow them to play and and be creative and be imaginative. So yeah, it's just it's it's so frustrating that we're still having to justify it.

Allegra Chapman 14:43

Burnout rates are so high right now. I mean, really, they are astoundingly high. And it is like it's it's directly related, right? Because, like, as you mentioned early on, like like problem solving, creative thinking, innovation, like all of that is linked to creativity. And so if you don't have the space to invite creativity into your life, like how are you going to be able to think outside of the box in a work environment? You're literally just like depleted on all fronts. Um, you know, I I look at the idea of rest a lot, like you know, like through um, you know, just this lens of like, we have been so programmed to think that rest is weakness and that if we have time to be doing something, like we should be checking off the to-do list and it's it's not productive to rest. Um, I love how you frame that, where you said, like, it's rest is in, or it's not productivity shouldn't be the end goal, like through your perspective or mine, but but even if you do value productivity, you still have to have rest. You will still create a better and more productive outcome if you rest. And like creativity I see as one of the like essential pillars of rest is like is creative rest. Um, I find in my own practice that it is restful. It's something I can do with my kids. Um, my kids are four, almost 11 and 12. And sometimes life can just be really, you know, chaotic with them. And I find that when I'm like my brain's ready to explode, I can just like pull out a creative project that we can either do together or that I can do, and it helps me also handle the like the chaos of my house. Um, but I find it's also like when I'm on my own meditative. Like, do you find I call them like creative meditations? Do you find like in your personal practice that it can be like meditative? Definitely.

Jess Callahan 16:37

And I I think that's that's a big part of where the benefits of of creativity come in. Because I mean, um I could I could list for you the ages all the different benefits of creativity for your mental health and your physical health. Like it, you know, it's good for anxiety and depression, and it um it lowers your high blood pressure, it boosts the immune system. Like it's there's so many, there's so many incredible benefits to being creative. And I think a lot of that does come from the the fact that there is this kind of a mindfulness that comes with it. Um, because some of it, a lot of it depends on what you're doing, obviously. But things like, I mean, you mentioned weaving, I really love knitting as well. So, like those sorts of things that have quite repetitive movements, and you're doing kind of the same thing over and over again for a while. There is something very kind of soothing about that for your nervous system, working with your hands is is a really kind of soothing practice. It brings you really into the present moment, and it's yeah, that kind of sense of working with your body as well. Like, I mean, I mentioned the sort of embodied sense of it, but that bringing you back into your physical body, using your hands, using your senses a lot. I mean, even if you're writing, you know, my main creative outlet is my writing, but sitting with a notebook and a pen is still there's quite a sensory experience in there. And obviously, if you're doing something like painting, where you can get really in there with the paint, or you know, you're doing something with yarn or whatever, you know, it's quite a sensory experience as well, which you know really helps with that embodiment, it helps with that mindfulness. And then the great thing about creativity is because you can get into sort of a flow state with it, and it brings you very much into the present, it grounds you, and you know, it just yeah, it's I think it's really a wonderful process just for connecting in with all of you, you know, your whole self, because you have that opportunity to connect with your body, you have that opportunity to fill your mind. I very similar to you, I have a four-year-old and a seven-year-old. So when everything is chaos around you, just having something that you can do. I can't sit in a room and read a book while my kids are rampaging around because that's I could I will read the same sentence 87 times and like throw the book out the window. Um, but I can sit and knit because all I have to do is, you know, keep going backwards and forwards along the row. And if they're asking me 20 million questions, I can deal with that and do what I'm doing. Or yeah, we do a lot of painting together, you know, we get the paints out and we just throw them around and make a mess. Um, but it's great because it's really good for them, it's a calming, soothing experience for their nervous systems. They get in there with the paint. And, you know, one of my kids is very sensory-seeking, and so we'll want to be fully immersed in the paint. The other one is more sensory avoidant, so she'll be with the paintbrush. Um, but it kind of meets both of their needs and calms them both, and yeah, that mindfulness and things with them as well. So, yeah, it's just like it's just such a great opportunity for you to connect in with your body, but also with your mind as well, because it calms all that chatter and it soothes you, and it just allows you that outlet to express everything that's going on and you know, listen to what is that's actually happening in you. Because I think we get so caught. Up in our busy lives, and especially when we have kids, or we have, you know, maybe we're also caring for parents, or we're, you know, we're running businesses, or what, you know, whatever it is we're doing, all of this stuff is going on, and it can be really difficult to go like, oh wait, how am I actually feeling right now? Like, what's actually going on for me? And when you stop and you spend a bit of time doing something like that mindfully, that maybe doesn't need so much of your brain, or you're doing something like journaling or painting where you're sort of channeling through onto the paper, you get that opportunity to actually listen to yourself and go, oh wait, this is how I feel, or you know, this thing is bothering me, or this thing is something I really want to do or I really need to do. So yeah, it just gives you that opportunity to tune in a bit more.

Allegra Chapman 20:46

Yeah, that makes sense. And okay, so sort of in that line of thinking, but like the opposite of meditation, I guess. Like, I will um, like if I'm watching a movie or uh having a conversation with somebody, I I always like to have be doing something with my hands. And um, I have a friend who like said the same thing. She's like, My husband's like, why are you painting while we're watching a movie? And she's like, I can't watch the movie unless I'm painting. And um, you know, you mentioned early on that you were diagnosed in your late 30s as a neurodivergent. I was, I was also diagnosed in my late 30s um with ADHD, and it's helped me understand my need to sort of do two things, well, almost like do something with my hands to tune in, but um in your discussion of just like like a lot of you touched on, I think, a lot of this idea in what you were saying last. So I'm wondering, like, how how do you think that shapes the lens through which you see creativity? Like, how does neurodivergence shape your view of creativity?

Jess Callahan 21:50

That's an interesting question because I suppose I don't know how to look at it through a neurotypical lens. Maybe have this one. But um, I so I do a lot of work with neurodivergent peoples. A big part of my work is empowering and supporting neurodivergent creatives because I think it's I mean, we especially those of us who are diagnosed late in life have been really used to being shut down and told that our way is the wrong way of doing things, and you know, this idea of productivity and routines that we just never fit into. And I know I held myself back from pursuing a writing career for a really long time because I was like, oh, I can't be a proper writer because I don't do things the way that proper writers do them. And it was only really learning about my I'm autistic and ADHD. And learning about that helped me to kind of go, oh wait, it's it's not there's nothing wrong with me. It's just that my brain is wired differently and I need a different approach. But it can be quite difficult, I think, especially if you were diagnosed later on and you've you've spent a lot of time being put down and being told you're doing things wrong, to then step into that and go, okay, I'm just gonna do things my own way and I'm gonna do things this way because it works better for me. So, and it also just really difficult to know where to start because all of the advice and all the guidance is written for neurotypical people. So um, if your brain doesn't work that way, it's really easy to get discouraged and go, oh, okay, well, this course or this program or this guide says I should do it this way, it's not working for me. Obviously, I'm a failure, I should just give up. So I my kind of big passion is saying to people, no, don't look, don't give up, grow that guide, ignore that course. Here are some other ways that you can do it. And so um, so I spend a lot of time talking to neurodivergent creators, and I think that neurodiversity I mean, neurodiversity is our default state as a human species because we are supposed to have different ways that our brain works. That's like we treat it again, we've sort of pathologized it to this extreme where it's some thing that needs to be cured. And oh my god, why are all these people neurodivergent? What's going on? And it's like, no, this is how with the diversity is built into us as human beings in all sorts of different ways, neurologically being one of them, because we need people who think in in different ways. And actually, I think being neurodivergent sets you up quite well to be creative. I don't think there's any actual research been done on this, although I would I would love for there to be. But my hunch is that neurodivergent people are um should I say that highly overrepresented within the creative sphere, because I think that if your brain works in a different way to other people, if you see the world in a different way to other people, that sets you up so well to be creative. And you know, you can you can bring that different viewpoint to life in a in a new way. And also if you kind of struggle to fit in in a society that tells you you're supposed to fit into this square box, but you're actually this, you know, hexagon shape and too multidimensional to fit into the little square cube, you find you know, you feel like most of the avenues in society are uh don't work for you. So actually, creativity is a way to express yourself, then I think you know, naturally appeals to a lot of neurodivergent people. And I mean, as to me, for example, I have synesthesia. So words have colours to me. And that's not, I didn't realize that that wasn't like I thought everybody did that. And then I remember being told, I think I was it was at school, I was in a class um at a philosophy class when I was like 17, and the teacher was talking about this thing called synesthesia, and words have colours, and I was like, oh wait, is that wow? Um so because nobody tells you, you only live inside your own brain, so you only know how you're experiencing the world from inside your own head. So until somebody tells you that this is a thing, you don't realize. Um, but so it just means that I, you know, words for me have really different connotations depending on what color they are in my head, and paintings, the way that a painting relates to a situation is really different depending on like the colours that are used and what work. So yeah, things like that bring a really different interpretation to the world that is then obviously really well suited to be depicted in creative ways. So I do think I think there's so many strengths that neurodivergent people bring bring to creativity and there's so many opportunities. I think if we stop seeing it as a pathology and start looking at the strengths and the opportunities that neurodivergent people have, then there's so much potential there.

Allegra Chapman 26:48

Yeah, it's like it's like once we do tune into the gifts that we have, it's um it just opens so many doorways and directions. And I just, it's so fascinating to me that words have color. You're now in this like expansively creative field. Um, for me, like I I have Aphantasia, which is maybe the opposite. I don't know if you'd call it the opposite, but it's a blind mind's eye. So I don't have any visuals at all. I am, if I like meditate or try to do a visualization, I am totally sight blind, which has caused me to like lean into other things, which has really impacted my journey. But I think that that it's a testament to how different all of our experiences are, and how you know, in the past, instead of creating space for these differences, we've kind of just tried to shove everyone into a box. And and so, okay, one of your, I think it was an article that I read on Substack is coming up right now about like creativity wounds from school and um like how that can like set the trajectory of our relationship with creativity. And I wondered if you could talk a little bit more about that.

Jess Callahan 28:03

Yeah, so I wrote a piece a little while ago about it because this I mean it comes up so often. I you know, I talk to people and they go, Oh no, I'm not I'm not creative, I'm not creative. And when you dig into it and the reasons why it's so often it stems from school, and I have I have many thoughts on the way education. Um I mean, obviously, I'm in in the UK and that the way the education system works here with creativity, and I think in the US is similar as well. Um, I I have many thoughts, but I for me it's that and obviously this is a really long time ago. I'm 42 now, and so yeah, this is however many years ago, but I remember I still remember so vividly I was eight years old, and I was in an art class, and we had to paint a picture of a tree branch, and then we had to all go up to the teacher's desk to show her our picture. I don't know why we were all having to file up to like reveal them, but whatever. Um, but so I did my painting and I took it up, and I I'm ate, I'm eight years old, and I take it up, and she I just remember her being so angry with me because it was so rubbish, and she went, Oh my god, it looks like a woolly caterpillar, and she made fun of it in front of everybody, but in a like in a really angry way as well. Like she seemed really angry, but also was making fun of me, and so all the kids obviously laughed because that's what kids will do, and I just felt just horrible, and I was quite a sensitive kid anyway, and anything like that was just excruciating for me, so I just died a little bit inside, and the story in my head from then for the next probably like 25 or more years was I'm not good at art, I can't do art. And luckily, I had some great English teachers, um, and also a mother who's massively into um books and and stories, and they all really encouraged me with the writing. And my English teacher at school was convinced I was going to be a writer, and he was really supportive. And my mother's always been convinced I was gonna be a writer, so they kind of gave me the confidence to carry on with that, which is great because otherwise I might have just given up on the whole thing altogether. But my story in my head was I'm all about the words, I don't do pictures, I can only do words, I can't do art. Um, I'm terrible at drawing, and blah blah blah. Um, and this went on for ages, and then I was oh my god, what 35 or something? And a friend of mine was running an art workshop. She's like, Oh, you should come along. And I was like, no, I don't, I don't do, I don't do art, I can't do art. And she was like, No, no, it doesn't matter, it's fine. And I was like, No, I no, and like, and that and this is you know, so what you know from 35 to 8, but the woo the wound was still there strongly enough that I was like, no, I'm not doing art in front of people, it was not happening. Um, but she kind of she was sort of talking to me about it and she was like, Look, it's just gonna be like making art, like when you were a kid, and we're gonna be splashing paint around, and there's no you're not making anything, it's just to you know, it's not about making a product. And for various reasons, that kind of spoke to me because of where I was in my journey and some other stuff that I'd been exploring and looking into and and kind of thinking about. So when she kind of said that, I was like, Oh, okay, maybe. Um, and because it was my friend who was running it, she was like, You can come for free, like just you know, just calm. And in the end, I was like, ah, fine. So when I showed up fully like I've never been so uncomfortable in my life, but I showed up and I sat there, and actually after a little while, I started to get into it, and it really was just playing with pain and throwing it around and making a mess and not worrying about the outcome. And I got so into it and I loved it. And actually, when I looked at what I'd done at the end of it, I was like, oh, this kind of looks pretty cool. Um, it was a massive mess of just pain everywhere, but I quite I kind of like that as a as a style. So um, but it was just so fun, like that experience of just really and again, like the physical embodiment of just being in with the pain and getting really stuck in, and just you know, no filter between your brain and your body, just expressing what's inside you just straight through your body onto the paper. I just found absolutely transformative. So I was like, oh my god, I need to do more of that. Um, so I got really into it. And now I, you know, I I do make art a lot, and it's something that I by is a is a really regular part of my practice. And I don't think I'm ever going to be a professional artist. Um and and you know, words is definitely more my my kind of first go-to, but I find having that other kind of creative outlet and creative expression so valuable to have another way of channeling, you know, what's going on. And you know, I'm writing a book at the moment and I'm making a mock-up of the book cover because I've got this idea in my head for what I want it to look like, and it's just a nice way of tuning into the essence of that book that I want to create to sit and make the artwork to go with it. So even though it's not something that is necessarily going to get used or is going to be part of the project, it's just helpful for me to tune into it. So I've kind of come this full circle. I've got an artwork that I made on the wall now in my house because I really like it. Um, somebody asked to buy a piece of art that I'd made, and I was like, what is happening? Um, but it just goes to show like how you can completely turn around from being like, I am terrible at art to being like, oh, maybe maybe art is a thing that I do. Um, but I think so many people have those early experiences. And whenever I tell this story, and like I, you know, I wrote about it on SubSec, and so many people tell me, like, oh my god, this happened to me. And they tell me what about the teacher who made fun of their work or told them they were no good, they should give up, or you know, sometimes it's a parent who maybe like really well-meaningly says to them, This isn't gonna make you money, you need to focus on something more serious, or you know, whatever. And they get guided away from it. And, you know, often it especially if it is something kind of cutting or someone's really brutal about their work, you know, when you're young, those things, I mean it it it cuts when you're older, but when you're little, it cuts so deep and it stunts so many creatives, I think, and then it shuts you down. And even if maybe that person's never going to be an artist, I mean, I don't think I was ever destined to be, you know, hanging in galleries around the world or anything, but there's a part of your brain and a part of who you are that is shut down in that moment because you're denying yourself creative expression. And as we were saying, that feeds into so many different aspects of your life that it can have a really big knock-on effect, I think way more than teachers realise. And it's really frustrated me now seeing my kids start school because I thought, okay, things will have changed now because I am old and I was at school so long ago, surely things are different. But it kind of seems like no, things aren't that different. Like there's still this real diminishing of the creative arts in schools and a real lack of support. And you know, what what my daughter's finding now at just seven is there's so much more focus on spelling and grammar than the story, and she's such she's so talented. I mean, she is, I think she's a more talented writer than I am. I think she's gonna be incredible. She's got such a strong narrative voice, and she comes up with these incredible storylines. But all the teacher cares about is whether she's used the right grammar or whether she started sentences with the because that's boring, and it's just like, oh God, why are we like what you know, the creative capacity that this child has, and you are squashing that with all of these rules, and it's oh god, it frustrates me.

Allegra Chapman 36:06

She's lucky to have you though to sort of like balance that at home, right? Like what she's getting at school, you like can see the gaps and be like, okay, so let's like let's fill it in here, let's like create some, you know, balance type. Yeah. So, okay, you write, you're an author, and you've overcome a creativity wound yourself. How do you continue to overcome like creativity wounding or rise above it? And another thing you wrote about recently is a headline that you wrote that was like used against you, which I was like, oh my gosh, I was like reading into it, like the before and after. And I think like the before was it was um, well, I'll turn it over to you, but I'm I'm just interested in in how you can, you know, it's it's your work, but it's also a deeply personal creative process. Like, how do you separate the two? Or when something like that happens, how do you overcome it?

Jess Callahan 37:04

Oh God, yeah, it's so it's hard. And I mean, all of this work, the easier, and you know, inner work is is ongoing forever, you know, it's not it's not a one and done thing. You can't be like now. Um, it's just you know, it's the work of a lifetime. And I this is something I say to my kids as well frequently is the whole work of your life is to figure out who you are, and that is going to keep changing and evolving, and you're gonna have to keep rolling with it. Um, and I say it to my kids because if I say it to them enough, maybe I will stop to realize it. That's I think like we all have that temptation to think like, you know, oh come on, like haven't I haven't I grown enough now? Why am I still learning life lessons? Like, thanks, universe. I really needed to level up again. Great. Um, but it's yeah, it's this is how it goes, right? It's it's an ongoing process, and you're you're constantly working on this stuff. And um, you know, he talks a bit before about how women have been conditioned in particular to think that you know we can't be creative, we can't answer our needs, we can't speak up, we can't tell our stories, and it's hard. And and you know, if you're neurodivergent as well, you've maybe been shut down more, and you know, people from certain minority groups as well have been shut down more than others. So, you know, intersectionality and things like that plays a big role. But that you know, if you have been consistently told don't share your voice, don't speak up, don't be seen, don't be visible, it's really difficult to then be like, hey, I'm gonna pitch all these articles to you know magazines and newspapers, or I'm gonna send my book out to an agent, or I'm gonna do because that's like the antithesis of everything you've been told to do. Um, and I still like I I'm not I'm not over that. It's still a thing that I have to work through and um it's it's ongoing, and then and then stuff like what you said happened. So I I wrote this piece. And um, you know, one of the things about about being a writer is you you quite often have to mine your life content for stuff that you can sell, um, which is difficult and it is very personal. Any creative project, I think, is very personal because it comes from you know deep within you, and it comes from within your soul, and you're then putting that out to the world. Um, and I write articles for um newspapers and magazines about my life, which is obviously like literally, it's you know, it's me. It's I'm I'm talking about some aspects of my life. And I wrote this article that was really, I really loved, I was really happy about writing it. Um, it was essentially about parenting as a community, and we are supposed to be raising children with a village. To support us, and most of us don't have that, and it makes it so much harder. And I think our kids suffer as well as a result, and it definitely puts a lot of strain on mothers. Talking about burnout, oh my god, like you know, we're trying to be everything to your kids as well as give to your career and everything like that. It's just it's unsustainable, it's not possible. So I wrote this article about how I have a group of friends, um, quite a small group, that I feel so comfortable with that we all kind of will act as parental figures for each other's kids. And so they will tell my children if their behavior is not acceptable, and I will tell their children if they need to, you know, wind it in. Um, and we'll also we're also trusted people for those kids to come to so they can come and ask us for advice because sometimes you need to talk to someone who isn't your mum. Like it's it's not there isn't always stuff that you want to share with your parents, you know. Um, and however much we might want to be everything to our kids, we just can't be. And that's not healthy. It's good for them to have other people to reach out to. So anyway, I wrote this piece about that and that kind of dynamic and how it works. And the headline they ran it's basically like made it sound like I just rampage around screaming at small children and that I'm just and it oh god, it was all awful. It was just and they've never done that to me before. I've written for that paper for like for ages, and I've I've written so many pieces for them, and they've they've never ever done that. Every headline that they've put on. I think most people don't realize that um authors of articles don't write the headline. So you write a piece and you put a title on it, but that title isn't it? I've never ever had an editor use the heading I put on an article, and I kind of don't even really bother thinking about it now. I just kind of you know slap whatever I usually use whatever headline I pitched. Um the pitch, you're trying to get the editor's attention. So you're just trying to summarize what the article's about in a really clear, concise way, um, to then get them to read your email because editors are really busy and they don't read half the pitches that they get sent. So you're just trying to get their attention. Um, so it it was it's very descriptive. You kind of know they're not going to use that because they never do. Um, but this particular editor has always used really good headlines that really encapsulated what I was saying and that were really faithful to the piece. So I've never had a worry. And I didn't even check this one when it went out. It was a couple of days later that I saw it and I was like, oh my god. Wow.

Allegra Chapman 42:33

Um it was like something like um, like I made my kid, my friend's kid cry and I won't stop because they need discipline, or like something outrageous.

Jess Callahan 42:45

Yeah, I can't remember the exact thing. I can't see if I can find it. But it was something like I think, yeah, I made a child cry, but they need discipline and I won't stop. And I was like, whoa, because the story that I put in there where I made a child cry. So this is what actually happens. Um, a friend of mine, one of one of these friends that's in this kind of friendship group lives around the corner from me. Our kids are at the same school, so we share the school run between us. So one of us will take the kids in and one of us will pick them up, and we have like a rotor and you know, saves on cars driving backwards and forwards, but also it gives us a bit of time to work because we both run our own businesses as well. So um, so I it was my morning to take the kids in. I um was dropping them off. I parked, we were walking. There's a little lane that goes down to my kids' school. Um, we're walking along there, and my friend's kid just ran out in front of a car. I had to like dive in to like save her and you know, rescue her. And I just had a kind of quiet chat with her and went, you know, we just we need to be really, really careful around this road, okay? There's cars coming up and down here, and we just, you know, we we can't run out, okay? And then all of a sudden I noticed she was like sniffling and rubbing her nose and her eyes, and I was like, Oh my god, I've made her cry. Oh no, I'm a horrible person. Um, and I kind of tried to talk to her a little bit. I'm like, Are you okay? She was like, and then just kind of went off to school really sad. And I was like, oh no. Um so I called her mum on the way back to my car and I was like, I've just made your daughter cry. I'm really sorry. And she just went, Yeah, well, she she shouldn't have done it then, should she? Like, she she said, I've told her a million times about that road. She needs to hear it. Like, maybe she'll listen more to you than she does to me. And I was like, Oh, okay, we're cool then. We've been making her cry. But yeah, so I made I I did make a child cry, but by accident, and I didn't yell at her, I wasn't horrible to her. And her mother was fully on board with it. She was very supportive of me making sure her kid didn't get run over by a car. So it was just, yeah, the way they twisted that story completely out of context to make this headline that was like, yeah, I don't care if I make kids cry, I'm not stopping or I don't care what anyone says. And it's like, that's not even, and it just feels to me really pointless anyway, because I know, I mean, we all know that they they're looking for engagement and it's clickbait and whatever. I get that, but it feels really counterproductive to me because anybody clicking on that article, motivated by that headline, is then going to be really disappointed by what they find because everything in the article is kind of the antithesis of that. So it just felt, yeah, it felt really counterproductive. They did, I must say, change it when I emailed, so I contacted the editor and I was like a lot. Could we maybe? And she was like, Okay, well, you know, I'll tone it down a bit. And she did. Um, and it's better now. It's something like it still says I made a child cry, but then I think it says something like but it's for their own good or something, which isn't loads better, but it's like the child catcher from bang. But um, yeah, it was it was just it's it, but it is hard because like you say, it's a really personal thing. You've poured your heart into something, and then your face, my face is out there next to this headline with my name. And then I was getting angry um messages on Instagram being like, You've got no right to tell people's kids stuff who do you think you are, and I was like, No, I don't what I do.

Allegra Chapman 46:16

Um, but yeah, it it is, it's it's such a vulnerable process to put your your work out there. Um, and you touched on something that is near and dear to my heart, and it's like the subject for an entirely different conversation, but that like importance of having a village and banding together and like and just one more thing, you know, speaking to the earlier parts of our conversation that we've been like disconnected from, you know, over the course of the last you know few centuries. So that's amazing that you have found that with your friends.

Jess Callahan 46:47

Um yeah, I mean, and I and that this is also I think like it plays into it because creativity as well is about connection. When you when you're telling your story and you're sharing your view, you are you know, you're showing yourself to other people and allowing other people then to see you and connect with you and go, oh God, and you, you know, you must get this all the time. You put content out and people are like, Jess, oh my god, that really spoke to me. I really like connect with you, and now I want to be part of your community and I want to be involved. And, you know, this is how we connect to each other, and it's also how we understand each other. And it's one of the reasons our society doesn't want certain groups sharing their stories, because if you are a woman or um an immigrant or a you know, a trans person or you know, somebody from a minoritised group that they're trying to demonize, and you're getting your story out there, and people can see you as a human being, then that completely deflates their whole argument. So that's you know, one of the reasons they don't like us being creative is because when we're sharing our stories, we connect with each other and we build those communities and we build those villages. And so I think it's all part of the same thing, that dismantling of the community and that silencing of creativity, I think, is all connected.

Allegra Chapman 47:56

Yeah, yeah, I I agree with you so much. So, okay, if there's I have one more question for you. If there is something you could share with people who are trying to reconnect with themselves on this journey of creativity, what would you share? And I know you also have um a membership. And so if that relates and you want to talk a little bit about that, um, please do, you know, share what someone might find there.

Jess Callahan 48:21

Yeah, uh, thank you. So, I mean, firstly, to just to your first point, if somebody is getting started on this journey, I think the most important thing to do is just to give yourself permission to just play and just to allow yourself to, you know, to have fun and to get stuck in and just see where it takes you and and not worry about the outcome. Like just let go of the outcome. And you know, I said it at the beginning, I'll say it again. If you head onto my subsite, you see me hear me say it a million times. The process is the point. You get the benefit out of engaging with it. It doesn't matter, burn the thing you create at the end of it if you want, you know, or rip it up. Ripping paper is incredibly therapeutic. So, you know, it's a really great stress reliever. So by all means, you know, draw a picture or write a story and then rip it into loads of pieces. Like it doesn't matter what you end up with, it just you know, give yourself permission to get in there and play and experiment and just you know, and and that thing of kind of just connecting with your senses and your body and just allowing what wants to come out to flow through you, and and just yeah, give yourself permission to get silly. But this is a lot of what we do in in my membership. So um is your creative fix.substack.com. And um I write a lot of pieces like the ones that you were talking about on on there, which are just free to read, which are just my kind of blogs about my creative journey. Um, but there's also a membership area which has creative therapy activities, it has uh creative prompts just to kind of give you a little imagination spark. Um, there's a toolkit section which has resources particularly geared towards neurodivergent creatives in in allowing you to build your own creative practice that suits your needs rather than trying to do it somebody else's way. And there's also a section around creative rituals, because I'm a really big fan of moving away from kind of routines and sort of high pressure, um, stressful like timetables and schedules and all that kind of thing, and just leaning into flexible rituals, which help to ground you in your senses and in your body and bring in that whole holistic part of you, get you out of your head a little bit, because I think we're too much, we're too much in our heads. And we, you know, we think about the brain as being the center of all thought, but you know, there's so much knowledge and and understanding and intuition in your body. So actually, when you can access that, you you open yourself up to so much more creativity. So we do a lot of work there around you know rituals and sensory experiences and and all that sort of thing. Um, so yeah, and I you know, I'd love to offer anybody who's listening to this a 20% discount on the membership. They want to come and check it out and try, you know, try some of the things. Um, so I will uh there'll be a link, I think. But yeah, that's you know, it's that way of just finding. I think you've got to find something that works for you. And I think we try and do there's all these sort of formulae courses and plans and routines that you can try. And people get really discouraged if they don't immediately vibe with it and it's just not really working for them because we're all different, and the whole point of creativity is individuality and to do things your own way. So I think it's giving yourself that permission to just have a go. So hopefully, in my membership, you'll find lots of different things that you can just have a go at until you find one that you're like, yes, this is for me. And you know, you can work your way through the different types of practice there are, the different ways that there are of engaging with the creative practice until you find one that you vibe with. But yeah, I think regardless of whether you know you're coming into my membership or you're you're starting off, you know, journaling or you're starting off just painting or whatever it is that you want to do, it is about just yeah, leaning into that, just giving yourself permission to do it your own way and to just have a go and see what comes out and to be to produce loads of stuff that's really crap for a little while, and you know, and that's all fine. And and I mean, God, I I write stuff. I mean, my my actual job is writing, and I write stuff that is terrible sometimes. I'm like, what the hell is that? But we just you know, we move on because it's part of the process, and maybe I'll refine it later and make it better, or maybe it will go in the bin. But you know, it's just it's all part of the process. So yeah, giving yourself that permission to just let it happen and do it your way.

Allegra Chapman 52:44

I love that. I love all of that. As you said, I will share links to how to contact you. Thank you so much for offering the discount. We'll include all of that in the show notes. And so um, I'm just I'm so grateful to have you here today. Thank you for being here. And um, I'm I look forward to connecting again soon.

Jess Callahan 53:03

Thanks so much.